Curse

Nechrond · Oct 20, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

I believe that banning heroes from all PvP does NOT solve the real problem here, and takes away some positive aspects of the game.

The main problem with heroes in PvP is that AI interrupt Mesmers are a lot better than human interrupt Mesmers. The symptoms are:
1) Human Mesmers become relatively worthless.
2) Some games are dominated by Mesmer heroes easily interrupting spells.

The ill-chosen "solution" of banning heroes from PvP handles the symptoms somewhat, but does nothing about the problem. For example, interrupt Mesmers will still be underplayed in PvE. Why bother waiting for a human Mesmer to do a mission when a hero can beat him easily?

Banning heroes from PvP also creates several new problems. For example:
-It takes most of the fun out of building good heroes. PvP is in many ways the "end-game" for GW. Gearing up and tuning your heroes is fun because they can be of help in the end-game - if you ban them from the end-game, this will just become a waste of time and items.
-Waiting times for PvP will rise dramatically. GW's player base is nowhere near as large as, for example, WoW's. Finding enough players for AB is pretty much only a real possibility during AB weekend. Why? People can't fill up the empty spots in their team with heroes. Banning heroes from all PvP types simply causes this problem to spread like the plague over all PvP.
--BONUS: Arenanet will "fix" this problem by coming up with special henchies. Excellent, now we will only be able to play popular run-of-the-mill team builds rather than come up with ideas of our own. I'm thrilled.
-The game will suck for new players, killing most of the player base growth. Most guilds will only pick the established players for their PvP matches. How are new players ever to get into PvP if they a) never get picked for a team, and b) can't build a team of their own with heroes?

Arenanet could prevent all these problems AND handle the original problem better by just making heroes a little worse at interrupt spells - e.g. make Mesmer heroes only "see" spells cast by their current target, and the last target called by their controller.

Dobermann · Oct 20, 2009, 12:45 PM // 12:45

OMG

/neversigned

8 Players vs 6 Players and 2 heroes?

Do I need too say anymore

A-Net sold us (pvp'ers) out too pve'ers. Cos pve noobs will buy the skill and equipment unlock packs.

Heroes have raped heroes ascent too worthlessness.

Rank isn't worth jack all now.

And now i shall rip your arguments too peices:

Banning heroes from PvP also creates several new problems. For example:
-It takes most of the fun out of building good heroes. PvP is in many ways the "end-game" for GW. Gearing up and tuning your heroes is fun because they can be of help in the end-game - if you ban them from the end-game, this will just become a waste of time and items. -

WRONG: Try doing all of underworld or DoA with only heroes. PvP and PvE are seperate, and
should remain so.

-Waiting times for PvP will rise dramatically. GW's player base is nowhere near as large as, for example, WoW's. Finding enough players for AB is pretty much only a real possibility during AB weekend. Why? People can't fill up the empty spots in their team with heroes. Banning heroes from all PvP types simply causes this problem to spread like the plague over all PvP.

--BONUS: Arenanet will "fix" this problem by coming up with special henchies. Excellent, now we will only be able to play popular run-of-the-mill team builds rather than come up with ideas of our own. I'm thrilled.[b]

You just owned yourself here, how will it increase waiting times if they add henchies. WRONG.

[b]-The game will suck for new players, killing most of the player base growth. Most guilds will only pick the established players for their PvP matches. How are new players ever to get into PvP if they a) never get picked for a team, and b) can't build a team of their own with heroes?[b]

Get better and play real builds and earn your skill.

This all from a dedicated player, who has played balanced since a N/E Tainted with Malestrom, combined with Evisc Axe and Sb/Infuse was called balance.

One more thing, nerfing heroes would kill pve, would dessicate sabway, and wld stop mesmer heroes from giving you a chance against certain HM bosses.

Gift3d · Oct 20, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

I believe that banning heroes from all PvP does NOT solve the real problem here, and takes away some positive aspects of the game.

The main problem with heroes in PvP is that AI interrupt Mesmers are a lot better than human interrupt Mesmers. The symptoms are:
1) Human Mesmers become relatively worthless.

i lol'd and stopped right here.

BlackSephir · Oct 20, 2009, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

1) Human Mesmers become relatively worthless.

AI mesmers interrupt Orison and are left without interrupts (and energy) when the really nasty spells come into play.

Dobermann · Oct 20, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

as for the "worthless human mesmers"

Please look at all the me/mo RoJ+Cry of Pain builds.

Nechrond · Oct 20, 2009, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Posts #4 and #5 kill the official motivation for banning heroes from PvP and thus support my point. Thanks guys!

EDIT: I also have some doubts that you really run into that many Cry of Pain builds in PvP, what with it being a theoretical impossibility and all that.

BlackSephir · Oct 20, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

No prob, gimme a call when AN finally listens to your ideas.

Nechrond · Oct 20, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

If you have any better ideas, I'd be happy to listen to them. But banning heroes from all of PvP because one specific type of hero causes trouble is just wrong, and a waste of a really nice feature. It's like banning Necromancers from PvP because bloodspike causes problems.
I'd also be fine with, for example, just banning certain skills on heroes in PvP.

MagmaRed · Oct 20, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Heroes are better than humans at reaction. Humans are better than heroes at decision. I'd rather have someone use an interrupt on a skill like Aegis, Weapon of Warding, Linguring Curse than I would have them use it on Patient Spirit (which is ready again before the interrupt is), Mend Body and Soul, or Parasitic Bond. Some skills are not worth interrupting, and heroes can't make those decisions.

AB has never allowed heroes, so nothing is changing there. I don't see how your idea effects AB or heroes either one in regard to this, unless you want to suggest Anet allow heroes for AB.

And for those poor PvE players who rely on heroes.... you idea is HORRID. Worst idea there is for a PvE player. If anything, the hero AI needs to be buffed as there are many things they fail at still that they shouldn't.

But the replacement of heroes with hench is bad for 2 reasons (in my opinion). First is they are using meta builds which won't work for many teams and will be nerfed with skill changes. Second is it is PvP.... which for those who forget is Player versus Player. If you want to play against NPCs, go do PvE.

Nechrond · Oct 20, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

AB has never allowed heroes, so nothing is changing there. I don't see how your idea effects AB or heroes either one in regard to this, unless you want to suggest Anet allow heroes for AB.
That's why I chose it as an example. AB = no heroes, AB also = an eternity of waiting. I fear that other PvP will end up like that too. Remember that if a 6-man team can't start because they can't add 2 heroes, that is 6 players taken out of the equation right there. The formats concerned aren't exactly known for their PUGs, more for people from the same guild who work together well.

And for those poor PvE players who rely on heroes.... you idea is HORRID. Worst idea there is for a PvE player. If anything, the hero AI needs to be buffed as there are many things they fail at still that they shouldn't.
Aye, the AI needs a major buff in some places. I merely suggested a slight and very selective nerf. Slightly nerfing Mesmer heroes would also make using OTHER heroes more attractive.

But the replacement of heroes with hench is bad for 2 reasons (in my opinion). First is they are using meta builds which won't work for many teams and will be nerfed with skill changes.
This, but it also forces you to use standard builds, because you can't get the NPC's to support doing anything original.
Second is it is PvP.... which for those who forget is Player versus Player. If you want to play against NPCs, go do PvE.
I might have agreed with this if GW had a 10x larger player base, but it hasn't.

EDIT: Also, yes, I would love it if they allowed heroes in AB. This would mean people could play it whenever they wanted to, instead of only during AB weekend.

nkrumsvik · Oct 20, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

[quote/] 1) Human Mesmers become relatively worthless. [/quote]

Ehmm.. ok?

/NOT signed

Killed u man · Oct 20, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Player vs Player.

AI shouldn't be in PvP. The ONLY, and I mean ONLY exception here would be:

In an AT/mAT a guild can pick a henchie (From the contest for example) if someone laggs out.

If someone leaves in-game, instead of graying out, his character gets replaced by a henchie of the same profession. (And only in GvG)

People should alrdy be happy you're still going to be able to feely use heroes.

Dobermann · Oct 20, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Posts #4 and #5 kill the official motivation for banning heroes from PvP and thus support my point. Thanks guys!

EDIT: I also have some doubts that you really run into that many Cry of Pain builds in PvP, what with it being a theoretical impossibility and all that.

Muppet:

more problems with heroes in pvp: Roj monks, perfect tainted necromancers.

Also i never said anything about cry of pain in pvp, so where the hell do you get that from?

Nechrond · Oct 20, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Let me just give you guys a logic chart to save you some time:

(int heroes ruin pvp) - no - (banning of heroes not necessary)
|
yes
|
(int players also ruin pvp) - yes - (Mesmer int needs PvP nerf)
|
no
|
(all heroes are too good in pvp) - yes - (you suck, learn to play)
|
no
|
(int heroes need PvP nerf)

The only point not on this chart is "NPC's do not belong in PvP". That would be a valid point if the player base were a lot bigger, but sadly, it isn't. Clear?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobermann

Muppet:

more problems with heroes in pvp: Roj monks, perfect tainted necromancers.

Also i never said anything about cry of pain in pvp, so where the hell do you get that from?

Tip for the RoJ: Step out of the RoJ already. If your opponents can keep you in the RoJ, then they're just playing well and deserve a win.

The point about tainted heroes is 100% valid, they ARE too good at that. This still does not warrant banning all heroes from PvP. My suggested hero AI change would fix it, as would implementing altered skill versions for PvP heroes.

Dobermann · Oct 20, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Tip for the RoJ: Step out of the RoJ already. If your opponents can keep you in the RoJ, then they're just playing well and deserve a win.

The point about tainted heroes is 100% valid, they ARE too good at that. This still does not warrant banning all heroes from PvP. My suggested hero AI change would fix it, as would implementing altered skill versions for PvP heroes.

so running a BB sin too keep you in the roj means "theyre playing well"?

Eragon Zarroc · Oct 20, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

lets ban all AI non-human playersfrom any kind of pvp -_- problem solved. no hero, no henchmen :P

Nechrond · Oct 20, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobermann

so running a BB sin too keep you in the roj means "theyre playing well"?

Yes. Or picking their team well. If they're beating you with this, I am confident that they will keep beating you with this even if they have to change their RoJ hero to an Roj player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

no hero, no henchmen :P

No hero, no henchmen, no chance for many people to get a complete team, no opponents showed up, no PvP, no GW. I'll admit this is a bit of an overreaction, but I'm sure you get my point.

AlsPals · Oct 20, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobermann

OMG

Heroes have raped heroes ascent too worthlessness.

Rank isn't worth jack all now.

Eh...for the record, the first iteration of Iway made rank worth jack. Just sayin.

Arkantos · Oct 20, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Where's the AI in Player vs. Player?

Heroes have done more harm than good in PvP, so no, I'd much rather see them gone.

Axel Zinfandel · Oct 20, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

i lol'd and stopped right here.

Really? Cuz I lol'd at the title and stopped. I just came for the impending lols.

But yeah, this is quite possibly the worst idea I've seen here a long while.

/neversigned with a side of /threadlock